[MUSIC]. That's really interesting. So, so far, we've talked about two of the dominant discourse that you've mentioned in your book. The third dominant discourse is one of reflective practice. And in our first week, we talked about reflection as a form of learning. But in your book, you mentioned that reflective practice is a particularly popular discourse in higher education. >> Mm-mm. >> Particularly on initial teacher education programs. Can you explain to us why it's so popular in that particular area? >> I, I think the idea of reflecting on our practice, of, of thinking about what we're doing and, and trying to be better or more effective, whatever we want to call it, it's nothing new. I think it's what teachers do. But I think it's kind of became sort of ratified or a, a it was given weight, certainly by a lot of research and, and writing Particularly in the, in the 80s and into, into the 90s. So I think it, it became sort of more formalized in a sense. And there was suddenly a weight of, of, of literature sup, supporting the idea. And also encouraging people, teachers and teacher educators to think more about, well. You know, we talk about reflecting on our practice, but what do we mean by it? Let's explore the different kinds of reflection we, we might undertake or encourage our students to undertake. Let's think of of, of you know, what it might be for. What are the parameters within we want to, to reflect? How do we get better at doing it? So it's, so I think it's always been something that teachers and teacher educators have believed in. but, it became popularized, if you like, through, through through research and ac, academic writing, the writing of people like Sherne, for example is often cited. There are many others so I, so really I think that that, that's how it started. I think the idea became sort of consolidated during the '90s, almost in resistance to the introduction of, of the competencies discourses, as we call it, which was, Basically central government deciding what teacher education should be, what it should focus on, what it was really about, what teaching was about, what learning was about, and identifying a kind of competence based model, that competence based model didn't really include in any detail or the idea that of, of reflection in practice. I seem to remember there the, the last competence or towards the end, there was a statement so- Something like teachers should also reflect on their practice, which wasn't really, it was really a kind of lukewarm acknowledgement, rather than you know, a cen-, something of central importance. And, and I, I. I think that probably that kind of a lukewarm response, itself, you know, produced a sort of equal and opposite reaction, if you like. So people were asking, people like myself were saying well, you know, well, why is reflection on practice. You're being so, kind of overlooked or marginalized in this way, and so in itself that perhaps encouraged us to make a stronger case and to develop the work in order to try and get it included in, in, you know, more in, in policy development, in government thinking. >> And so, how does reflecting on practice help somebody become a better teacher? [SOUND] Well, [LAUGH], I'm, I'm tempted to say how can we ever become, you know, better at what we're doing if we don't reflect on our practice? It goes back to this idea of, of becoming, I think. If we don't reflect on what we're doing, if we then we, I think we're likely to get stuck. And we're going to get stuck into this notion of being. so, so the, so we have to be careful about what we mean by reflection I think as well. I mean, one of the problems with, with, with reflection being halfheartedly included in, in competencies was that, Then, you know, student teachers, for example, had to provide evidence that they were, because everything you have to provide evidence for. Well, you can provide evidence of lesson planning or I know, you know, you can just produce your lesson plans in a folder. How do you produce evidence that your reflecting on something? well, of course, the easiest most economic way of doing this is, again, is to have something written down, so, evidence of reflection on practice then, I think became a matter of at the end of the day sitting down and writing kind of evaluations of your lessons. That was evidence of reflective practice. But of course it's not really that's not really what we mean. It becomes, I've described as ritualistic. It doesn't necessarily it is, it's, it's, it becomes a job that you have to do. >> Mm-hm. >> Here's the evidence. Okay, I've completed that competence. So really it distracts us I think, from what reflection is really about. And reflection is really about, challenging, I think it's really about challenging your, the assumptions that you bring with you into teaching. it's, it's, it's trying to question how you do things in order that you might do them differently and we, you know, we hope better. Or, of course, it might reinforce, you know, your, your belief in what you're doing. But it has to be proper reflection, I think. It has to be authentic reflection. Which I think is very hard to, you know, is very hard to provide some sort of concrete evidence to somebody else that you're doing it. >> Mm-hm. >> And I think that's the real problem, actually. You know, because, you know, if you live in a, in a world in which you're constantly having to prove that you've done something. The things which it's hard to prove that you've done. That, you know, they become marginalized in your own, in your own practice and in your own thinking So I think it's become quite hard actually, to, to, persuade a lot of teachers that reflection on practice is important and it's something they need to keep on doing. >> The teachers often talk about time, as well. >> Of course, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. >> About, about the time for reflection, and. And evaluation, [COUGH] as, as you describe it, the bottom of a lesson plan is quite a quick and easy thing to do. >> It is, yes, yeah. >> Whereas the kind of reflection that you're talking about takes a lot more time. >> Hm. It does. It does, although you know, to be honest, I mean, anyone who's ever interviewed, you know, teachers and, or beginning teachers about this knows that. Teachers have a, a habit really, which some of their partners probably don't approve of. Of not being able to switch of, [LAUGH] so that they are, they're, it's not that they, at the end of the day, they go away and stop thinking about their teaching. >> Mm-hm. >> They do think about it all the time and. So, so, in a, in a sense that the timing of course it takes time to think about, but I think that happens anyway. And I think what we need to do is try you know, encourage people to use the time more productively. There's a difference, I think, between going away, but there's a difference, for example, going away feeling really wretched. You know, beating yourself up. And, and sort of running through all sorts of plans about how you're going to try and make things better the next [LAUGH] morning. And there's a difference between that, and, and, you know? Going away and thinking you know, perhaps a little bit more, calmly. And I hesitate to say it. But perhaps more objectively, in a sense, about, about what's happened, and what you might do. And focusing on. You know, thinking about the teaching and learning. Thinking about how you might do things differently in the future. So, you know, the idea of reflective practice, to go back to the initial question, one of the ways in which it helps I think is to provide a more positive alternative. And a more product, potentially productive alternative to, what often happens. Which is, just going away, and feeling really awful, you know, about something that's happened. Or even going away and feeling euphoric about something [LAUGH] that went well. and, and, they're not really, you know? Thinking about it or thinking about how it went well, how it went badly, what you might do differently in the future, and so on. >> So how was the type of reflection that you're, that you're talking about, how would that be different from just thinking about what happened during the day? >> Well, because it's, I think in two ways. First of all it's, it's, it focuses more on questioning your own Questioning your own teaching I suppose, and it also focuses, it's also more sort of future oriented as well. It doesn't just look back at what happened, or you don't just think about what happened in the day. You think about it in a way which is going to feed into what you do in the future. In fact you know, when we talk about reflective part, for a lot of people, there is no difference between thinking about their teaching and reflecting on their teaching. >> Mm-hm. >> it's, it's because some people think in a particular way about their teaching anyway. They think reflectively anyway about their teaching. They, they. They, I, they go away at the end of the day perhaps. They, they think about what happened. Not just that day but, but you know, any day. And they try and look forward to, you know, how they might do things in the future. How they, things that worked, how they might develop those. Things that didn't work, you know, why didn't they work? How am I to do things differently next time? Do I need to prepare something differently. Do I need to respond to somebody in a different way? I think, you know, and it's not just about, sort of, lesson planning. And it's also about some, you know, the interactions we have with students. The sort of emotional aspects of things, you know. That is often, I think, what upsets teachers most. You know, if they have a confrontation with a, with a student. Or if a class just seems togot to go completely out of hand. It's very easy to just feel bad and, and, and not quite know what to do. Reflection is more about regrouping, I think and, and thinking well, you know, what, you know, this is not satisfactory. What am I going to do? And again, I'm not, I'm not just going to focus on, on me. I'm going to focus on some of the things that I might do. In order to make things better or different. So it's very much the idea that we focus on, on what we do. what, what we do that's different. Rather than, you know, thinking too much about, you know, me. You know, do I need to change? Do I need to- >> Sure. >> So, so again, you kind of. Find a space to focus on the important thing, which is, you know, the, the, the students learning.
